GAIN Momentum - Lessons from Leaders in Hospitality, Travel, Food Service, & Technology

​GAIN Momentum episode #58: Hotel Leadership in the Post-Material World | with Jannes Sörensen
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Adam Mogelonsky: Welcome to the Gain Momentum podcast, focusing on timeless lessons from senior leaders in hospitality, travel, food service, and technology. Our co host today is Neil Foster and our special guest today is Jannes Sörensen, who is the founder of the Kepler Academy. And we've brought Jannes on to teach about the future of hospitality leadership, which is something that is so critical and much needed right now. Jannes, how are you?
Jannes Sorenson: I'm good. Uh, good morning from Japan, Adam. Hello, Neil. Good to meet you both. Thanks for the opportunity.
Adam Mogelonsky: So,
Neil Foster: Oh, hello, good time.
Adam Mogelonsky: Good morning. Yeah. Ohio. to get started here. Uh, I'm wondering, could you just give us some background on your hospitality career, the founding of the [00:01:00] Kepler Academy or a Kepler International Hospitality Academy and where it's going, what led you to this and everything in between.
Jannes Sorenson: Yes. Um, so I think to summarize my career, um, I really started my career with a focus on the guest. I was a concierge for several years working in Berlin, Paris with the Four Seasons Georges V, I moved to the Ritz Carlton in Barcelona, being a concierge in Spain. And then I was the assistant head concierge when the Plaza Hotel reopened in New York.
Uh, which was a fabulous experience in its own and being in New York, my focus really shifted from the guest to the team. Um, having had a leadership experience in New York, I realized that that's really where my focus went and working then at the Connacht Hotel in [00:02:00] London as a director of rooms, going back to Paris to work at the Bristol.
Also as the director of rooms and then running the Beaumont Hotel in London for five years. My thinking evolved from the guest to the team to a deeper sense of purpose really and and questioning myself, why am I doing what I'm doing? What impact do I create running hotels? And through this journey, it wasn't that the guest or the team became less important.
It's really just that my thinking evolved. And for me, running a five star luxury hotel, I came to the point to ask myself the question, what is the, the tangible positive output that the hotel creates? What is the problem that [00:03:00] we're solving? Um, and how do we add value, to, um, stakeholders that are not within our four walls?
And I was a bit at a loss, to be honest, and I realized that, um, Luxury hospitality. We as a whole take more than we give back. and we're not really in the business of solving problems. Um, there is, uh, an underlying inherent issue of creating problems on an environmental level, um, running luxury hotels and what is interesting is that the sheer fact of running An uber luxury hotel in a big city.
isn't so much only the footprint you create as that building, but it is really the, [00:04:00] the, the way of life and sort of the, portrayal of ultimate financial success celebrated in luxury hospitality that promotes a lifestyle that is inherently unsustainable. And sustainability always comes in sort of three different scopes, right?
You have your scope that is related to everything you do yourself. Scope two, what suppliers do you work with? Who do you engage with? And then scope three, what is your impact on the wider world with what you're doing? Are you changing, are you transforming people's lives through your actions? And within luxury hospitality, what I realized is that we try to embrace [00:05:00] sustainability on a local level, but the system inherently needs to change the portrayal of what success looks like, what luxury looks like, needs to change because luxury inherently is not a concept for the rich.
It's a concept for the poor. So if we have large amounts of people aiming to eventually obtain a way of life that the few only can live, the system will not cope. So we need to change the North. Point, you know, the north star to say, what are we actually aiming for and not seeing sustainable living as a compromise or as a restriction, but really as a new elevated success story of a beautifully lived life.
With Kepler Academy, I'm a son of teachers, my father is a professor of a school, all my family are academics, I was the only guy going into [00:06:00] hotels and sort of doing something, not with my head, but with my hands. I'm not like, The natural born entrepreneur, right? Like Kepler Academy wasn't really, you know, business number 25 that I tried to get off the ground.
It was really because I felt there was such a need to look at new positive driven business models for hospitality and not sort of business, business as usual and looking around in the landscape of the educational offering, I couldn't find the program that. I would have needed being a managing director of a London hotel to position me, myself, my shareholders to be successful in this, new future.
So that's where we started to create the fundamentals and the principles of Kepler Academy.
Adam Mogelonsky: So I'm wondering, you know, on that note, talking about Kepler Academy and, uh, myself, I work in luxury hotels. I would [00:07:00] love to do a deep dive on some of the properties you've you've worked at because they are, you know, barn on the best in the world.
But to focus on Kepler Academy, could you? Give us an overview of the educational format in terms of the three modules and the workplace leadership assignment that you give to students. And within that you're recording from one of three locations. It'd be great to hear
about those three locations and why specifically those three locations.
Jannes Sorenson: we thought long and hard about this because there's a really a balance to strike. How long do you take people out of their sort of natural habitat? And, as you know, we were always very busy in hotels and we, we can't, you know, go away. and at the same time, The need to take people out of their usual surroundings and to allow the space to actually integrate learning.
So we created a model that sort of, we felt [00:08:00] strikes the right balance. It's in two phases. So we have. Um, three residential models that are five days each. So this current first pilot, we started in Amsterdam in October. We're in Kyoto now, and then we're going to Basel and Freiburg in December. Three times five days where the participants travel to each of these three locations, followed by a two months follow up, um, where we'll continue to coach and guide the participants to implement their value proposition and their business model ideas into their current, work setting.
As a course, we were right from the start, much more interested in output rather than input. of course tremendously matters what you create, how you create and what you put into a [00:09:00] course. But what really matters for the participants is what they take out of the course. And does it actually transform the way they think about themselves and think about their businesses and their role in the business?
Or is it a course where they enjoy it? They find it fascinating. You know, they have a great time and they meet some good people. And then how so often I, I came back to my desk and I looked at my executive committee and the question really was, what have I missed? And I sort of continued back in the usual.
sort of way of running my business and Kepler Academy was always about profoundly transforming the way people think and what we've, believe is that that happens through exposure to experiences. And to profound new knowledge that you weren't aware of, right? We live in times where information really is democratized.
I mean, [00:10:00] everybody can know everything at no cost with a tip on a keyboard. So it's really. The creation, the framing and the sense making of relevant information that adds so much value to the program. Ultimately, what will hold tremendous value is how can we help people to focus on things that matter most.
Because we have always this inherent fight between attention and information. And there's just an avalanche of information, and we have a very limited amount of attention. So, Amsterdam, we choose, um, to really get 360 degree look at What's the state of the world? Um, what's happening around us? Not what happens in luxury hospitality per se, but what happens on a, on a macro economic mattress [00:11:00] sociological, uh, scale, where's the world moving?
What are the hard facts, that surround our industry as an industry? We. We sometimes, and I speak from my own experience, quite inward looking. There's a world around us and they have very clear signs of tremendous change that we either choose not to look at, or we don't have the access or the time to look at it.
But they really inform of how we will operate our businesses in the future. Moreover. Amsterdam was the first city that really embraced a new tourism strategy. Um, they called it tourism that works for everyone. And it's really about looking at all stakeholders. Of the model and say tourism isn't about more and higher and more numbers and more revenue created.
But how can we sustain, an environment where [00:12:00] tourism is a win win situation, not only for people who visit Amsterdam, but people who live in Amsterdam, people who work in Amsterdam. that On a long term basis, the city remains attractive for people to spend All the time there and then people to come visit because very often we go to cities for its authentic living experience.
but If we don't protect that, then eventually we'll also lose what makes cities attractive. So Amsterdam has been incredibly innovative and Amsterdam and partners, for example, Had tremendous success looking at this and really repositioning Amsterdam's tourism strategy. Um, but moreover, there's, um, amazing businesses that are found in Amsterdam.
You know, I mean, booking.com for example, is based in Amsterdam, the European headquarters and like them or not, they're a force [00:13:00] of nature and they really are incredibly innovative in the way they look at hospitality. Hans Meyer, who was a co-founder of CitizenM founded Zoku in Amsterdam, which was, I'll speak about, um, hopefully a bit of, a little bit more later a truly innovative new, new concept for hospitality.
Kyoto is all about, um, deep service, omontenashi, how they call it, and self mastery, mastery of self. In luxury hospitality, I think we always speak about service and we always speak about leadership. But what I realize often the follow up question, we start to already have trouble to define that really.
What does actually good service really mean? What are the fundamentals of good service? How is it done? Um, and, and why is it so important? What is it that moves [00:14:00] us so much about good service? And in Japan, And we're very fortunate to have the opportunity to be exposed to century, if not millennia old traditions that encapsulate the art of providing service, of receiving, in a lot of the traditional art Procedures like the tea ceremony, which really encapsulates all aspects of hospitality, right?
It's not about pouring water into a bit of matcha tea and stirring it around. It's, it's profound. Um, uh, you know, the Ikebana flower arrangements are headquartered. with the Ikebono family in Kyoto. Again, it's not about putting a couple of branches in a vase. There is deep, profound wisdom surrounding these ancient traditions.
And what we realized this week is that participants are deeply moved to understand the [00:15:00] scale and the intention and the care that businesses have, have put into these procedures for centuries to master, the art of welcoming people and looking after people and being truly prepared for these experiences.
Buddhism, uh, in many ways is a great inspiration to leadership. Uh, we, for example, went to Nara to visit to Daiji Temple and Murimoto san, who is currently the son of the head priest, who runs the temple, He spoke a lot about, um, this massive Buddha statue that was created in the year 600, and the Emperor of Japan at the time, um, could have just ordered for the people to build the Buddha.
He realized already at [00:16:00] that time that great leadership is not about directing people and telling people what to do, but to allow people to be part and take ownership and participate in a project that is much larger than themselves. So there's this beautiful saying, the Buddha is made out of wishes.
So this wasn't an order, it was a wish and in a population at the time of 5 million Japanese people, 2. 6 million Japanese contributed to building this 20 meter plus high Buddha statue. Um, you know, at a time where nothing ever that big had been constructed out of, copper. Um, there are a lot of learnings in leadership here that are not sort of your usual, uh, sort of one on one YouTubable leadership, uh, principles, which all have their place, experiences that, that deeply move [00:17:00] you and really.
question the way you look at yourself and your own capacity to grow and to lead. and that's really, I think one of the biggest takeaways for the group is that it all starts with leadership of self before you can lead anybody else, you have to lead yourself and no better place to experience this in practice than Japan and Kyoto.
Basel and Freiburg, uh, Maybe some of the best examples of innovation when it comes to sustainability and sustainable living. Sustainable living as an elevation of the way we live and not as a compromise, uh, Cartier Vauban, which is based in Freiburg is the first sort of, carbon positive living environment, uh, that was built in Europe.
It's by now 25 years old. It's one of the most Desired and popular places where people would like to live. and it's just a huge success story [00:18:00] of an environment creating benefit for all stakeholders, including nature, right? Who, um. Is a big stakeholder in all of our businesses, but not as a compromise or as a lesser of an experience, but really as the desire of what people want to, to do and the way they would like to live.
the new administrative city hall of Freiburg is completely of fossil fuels. There's a thousand people in there every day. You wouldn't see it. It looks a bit like Apple park in Cupertino. Um, it's like this most beautiful design building, but it just happens to be fully sustainable. Right. There's no tree trunks or, you know, like plants everywhere.
It's just a cool looking building that happens to be our fossil fuels and has an incredible work environment. And that really is the future of sustainability. Sustainability, not as a add on program or something that we have to do as the foundation. Of everything we do, because why would [00:19:00] you create businesses and operate businesses that inherently are not sustainable?
because even as a business, you have an interest that your business is sustainable, right? You want it to live for a long time. Um, so Amsterd, um, Freiburg and, and Basel really, uh, give some incredible insights of that put into practice. And, um, we can't wait to go there with a group in December.
Adam Mogelonsky: Well, to pick out one thread here, um, I'd love to go back to talk about just how you got involved in Japan and more observations there. One thread to follow up on sustainability, as I've always said, we need a new term. And really, because sustainability is, is a checklist, but checklists don't inspire, they don't, they don't sell rooms, right? So what I look at is I look at, I use the term storage stewardship. as a term where we're [00:20:00] stewards of the planet and we want to usher in something better. And so that's the term I use. And I'm just wondering, could you, for everyone who's like, still can't wrap their head around how important this is, how important it is to have a sustainability outlook, how important it is to think about giving back more and to be true stewards as leaders for the 21st century hospitality world and all businesses going forward. Do you have a single stat or metric that you can point to, to basically show the relationship between the demand for each eco consciousness on multiple levels of, modern day consumerism and how that's going to affect travel, uh, whether that's within the luxury segment or, uh, travel overall.
Jannes Sorenson: Yeah. Um, so funny enough, Booking.Com in 2022 made a big study around this and more than 80 of travelers. [00:21:00] Look at sustainability when they make travel choices right now, there's 30 of travelers who actually started to travel in off season. Um, 50 of travelers choose environments because of their sustainability efforts.
It's huge and it's here and it's there and with changes in demography, younger generations, the numbers are even more staggering. Um, so sustainability is really not a nice to have. Um, it will determine a lot of, business moving forward. A lot of companies have very strict, uh, and regulations as to businesses that they have to engage with.
So it's very, um, encouraging to see of how consumers embrace this new way to live. It just feels like that our industry is still stuck a little bit in this old model of hospitality. And it's not the market of consumers that needs to be created. It really is the industry that needs to respond to [00:22:00] this and starts to be proud and very integrated about their sustainability efforts.
And not see this as something that they have to do. There's also something to be said about the impact of sustainability efforts. So, two of the main ticket items are energy and food, right? We're all very conscious of plastic straws and about, you know, a plastic bottle. about the fact that we don't want people to use so many towels and not shower very long.
And we put in these shower heads that don't leave water out. Um, and. All of that is obviously helping, but it's a drop in the ocean compared to what, for example, animal agriculture contributes to the demise of our planet or, you know, backward looking energy systems in hotels and, and, um, lack of, uh, efficient distribution of energy [00:23:00] and isolation.
It really pales compared to this. So it's really about focusing on things that don't impact the experience of somebody having a shower or, you know, having the same towel for six days. I think that's a very hard sell to luxury clients, but if you create systems that are inherently sustainable, I give you one Malmo, Sweden called orbital systems that have created.
The first circular shower. So it's actually running. There's a hotel group in, um, the Nordic countries, good smelter and hotels. They operate a property in Copenhagen, uh, that has these showers installed and you take a shower and they say, if you shower for 15 minutes. You save 80 percent of water. So this changes the paradigm.
Now you don't say to a client, don't shower, but you figured out the infrastructure behind that. [00:24:00] To create a system that in that particular case cleverly detects if the water is contaminated by let's say shampoo or body wash and that water will go to the drain, but most of the water when we shower is actually very little, you know, contaminated with anything and that goes back into a very sophisticated filter system and a UV filter system.
And it actually comes up cleaner out of the shower head that it came out. Um, and that's just a way of, of looking at sustainability as an elevation of the client experience and not as, something that we asked the client to do for the hotel, right? It's about what does the hotel do for the client? Same with food.
You know, we all have, you know, 40 percent of food is wasted and the impact of very animal food, heavy restaurant [00:25:00] menus, just pales. I mean, you know, if, if we ask people not to shower, but then we have a steakhouse, you know, like for a kilo of beef, you could show our shower for a week, you know, like it's not, we're not honest with ourselves to say what are really the big levers that we can.
Um, have an impact on the experience and if people in hospitality focus more on plant heavy menus and try to have less meat, less of the rare foods that really create so much destruction on the planet, clients will have a fantastic experience that won't even question it because people are not, you know, out for a specific food group, they're out for a great atmosphere, a good experience with delicious food, then we can be happy.
Very sustainable and even regenerative without the customer having lesser of experience, but an elevated experience.
Adam Mogelonsky: just one thing, Neil, before you go in, just to clarify, the Good Smelled and Proper you're talking about in Copenhagen is [00:26:00] the Man and Lace Suites that wins all the awards for design as well, right?
Jannes Sorenson: And so they have 2 hotels in Copenhagen, Guldsmulden, and they have, it's, they're very far advanced on sustainability and the hotel that I'm referring to is in the center of Copenhagen and they have this orbital system installed. Um, they're the first to tell, actually, they've ran a pilot. They're still based in Scandinavia, but they're planning to, eventually roll out and, and there's even, uh, right now, uh, a new system, which is a tap, sort of a oval system tap that brings that to, you know, your, wash basin in the room, really, and, and tries to renew that water as well.
And there's obviously scope for laundry and, everywhere we use water.
Adam Mogelonsky: Yeah, what, what I was hinting at there is that, I see profound implications from a marketing differentiation standpoint, as well as the ability to increase the top [00:27:00] line by treating sustainability and stewardship of the planet as a selling feature and as something that's inherent to the culture and using that to differentiate yourself from having to be on the OTAs where rates can be commoditized.
I
see a huge
Jannes Sorenson: percent. Yes, I mean, think about it this way. If you're solving a real world problem and you allow people to participate in the solution of this problem.
Right. You sell marketing budget looks very differently because the challenge that we face in luxury hospitality is that we're selling all the same thing, right?
The buildings are designed by the same architects, you know, the same interior designers with the same afternoon tea menus. We often have the same people doing the same services, you know, in the same way. So we have to spend tremendous amount of sales and marketing and distribution to create a competitive edge.
Now there's luxury hospitality that actually aligns with the way people [00:28:00] live and allows them to continue the way they live impact positive when they travel, right? Now hotels are not businesses, but they're platforms for people to live lives that they want to live. You know, you'll have a lot of net supporters and people who talk about it and create a real differentiation.
Plus a hotel that's energy efficient has a lesser energy bill, right?
Neil Foster: I just wanted to say, Yanis, that I find your perspective very refreshing. So one of the challenges I think that, uh, that we've been facing in our industry is, the idea of greenwash. You have, uh, all of these changes that appear to be good for the earth. It's, sustainable, but at the end of the day benefits the hotel operator, the owners, and somehow, puts unpleasant pressure.
On the guest while not changing anything about rates. And so if some of those perceptions are to change, I love the idea that you're looking at technology and looking to sort of find [00:29:00] shifts in technological innovation to address some of the issues. And if a guest doesn't feel any net impact by taking a shower with recycled water.
Or if there's a filter applied to the water supply such that all of the water that's poured out of the tap is potable water that's high quality filtered water that these are investments that one can argue are, they're investments that are made for the, the improvement of guest experience.
And so being able to communicate that somehow, uh, and if you're looking at omit, omit to Nashi. Basically, you're looking at hospitality as a way of life and it's care versus expectations. I think this is the way that you might have also described this, you're sort of immersed in an environment of care.
One of the questions that I had for you though, is looking at some of the nuances across, uh, across cultures. So I find it super fascinating that you have, flagpole in Swiss culture, which is synonymous with the [00:30:00] highest levels of hospitality and some of the best hospitality schools in the world, you have Amsterdam, which you could argue is a place that is, um, that has evolved because of constraints.
that the innovation in, in Amsterdam and in the Netherlands may have come about because most of the country is below sea level, and that has forced people to think about things in a different, in a different way. Japan also has lots of constraints and a rich history. And I guess looking at all, all of these different places where, uh, your students move around and absorb different nuances of culture, I guess I wanted to go back to a point you made about.
plant versus versus animal Japan, presumably in Kobe, you probably want to promote Kobe beef. Some of the amazing seafoods. What's your view on sort of the nuances and being able to find sustainable ways of feeding people or giving [00:31:00] people good quality wellness experiences and sort of drawing from all of these different places.
Jannes Sorenson: Well, to speak about Japan, it's true that we, we, what we know about Japan is sort of sushi and Kobe beef. But having said that, like Japan, for example, for many centuries, it was actually forbidden to eat meat, right? Like that's a very relatively new thing compared to the history of Japan, which is all related to Buddhism, right?
Like, uh, Kukai went to China, uh, in the year 600 and really brought Buddhism to Japan. And from then on, um, you know, Japanese Buddhism was established and yeah, for many centuries and still today, um, the traditional, uh, Japanese Buddhist monk food is strictly vegan. So this notion of, eating a lot of meat and seafood is really new.
I mean, the, the population of Okinawa mainly leaves, lives on, uh, purple sweet [00:32:00] potatoes, right? Like there is an element of course, of, of seafood and fish in people's diets, but it's a fraction of what we perceive it at. And, and, um, same with meat. So, of course. It could be beef and, and, and seafood as part of the Japanese tradition and has its place.
I'm not arguing the fact that we, you know, should all become vegans, but like, it's the amount of food that we consume that is based on animal products that is a problem. I think the average American eats 250 kilos of beef every year. That's just completely unsustainable. If everybody would live like America, we would need nine planets.
Right. That's a problem. Um, especially for more and more people rising into middle class, luckily, and less poverty, if we start to aim to live like the successful Western developed worlds today, we just don't We just can't do it. So we rather change the idea of what success looks like and what we [00:33:00] associate with success.
Let me give you one example, which I find staggering. Chinese mothers have never given their babies milk. That's, that's just nothing they do. Um, Yes, they're breastfeed, but after that they wouldn't have cow's milk. Now, the Netherlands biggest export client of powdered milk for baby formula is China, because there's an element of aspiration and, and potentially copying Western systems and see what is it that we should be doing.
And that is what I mean when I say luxury is a concept for the poor, not the rich, right? Arguably, the people that we advertise on Louis Vuitton advertising boards won't buy Louis Vuitton, right? Like it's not for them. It's for people who want to be like these people. And that's where as luxury and luxury hospitality professionals, we have a choice to make.
We can either perpetuate and And move forward an [00:34:00] old outdated system, which is inherently unsustainable, or we can look at new positive business models that will actually lead us into sustainable future. We have the power to redefine what success looks like. It has to come from the ultimate luxury experience because that's what always will be aspiration.
The interesting part is that most of the clients that. Can afford these type of luxury experiences. They already have changed their lives. They're very conscious of their consumption. They don't want these conspicuous wasteful offerings of luxury. I spoke to a tech billionaire not very long time ago, and he put it this way.
He said, look, Jannes in front of you is a table. There's a lot of stuff on the table. Most people can't have everything that's on the table. I can have everything that's on the table. And you know what? It doesn't make me happy. [00:35:00] So now, I don't want anything on the table. I'm looking for experiences that are based on the human experience.
That's what ultimately enriches my experiences. It's not the stuff. But if we continue to perpetuate this consumer story, that we're inherently in, and luxury hospitality is really a major force of consuming ever more and building bigger, better, higher, faster, then the system, what we perceive of something that we should aspire to is inherently wrong.
So the people who can afford everything No, that stuff doesn't make them happy, but we have in society, these miswantings that we think that we can have something that makes us feel better. Once we get it, we realize that it actually doesn't make us feel better. So we want the next bigger thing. That's really a very clever marketing sort of, of marketeers in the U S after the second world war and has led to, you know, a tremendous [00:36:00] amount of consumerism.
But we're past that the future is not the consumer story, but the citizen story.
Adam Mogelonsky: want to push back a little bit because I'm fully on board with this post material world that we're all advocating here, but I want to push back because I do study the history of food and If you look at meat consumption in the new world, Canada and the U. S. specifically, part of the reason why meat became so abundant was because it was a sign for immigrants to show abundance that they didn't have in the old world. So it was, it was a signal to put meat on the table. And that's very similar to right now about buying Uh, Louis Vuitton handbags, you're signaling abundance, you're signaling that you are something, it's conspicuous. And my pushback in all this is that the whole idea of consumerism [00:37:00] is therefore hinging on a genetic component of wanting to signal. To your environment that you have something and then of course it takes someone who actually has something like the tech billionaire you mentioned to then see what's on the other side and see that. The actual objects, they're ephemeral, they're, they come and go, but it is that human to human connection, this post material world that we all really are striving for. So
that, with that in mind, um, that there is a genetic component to consumerism and that as the global South and China attains the middle class and starts to want to, is compelled on a genetic basis to show abundance. Through various means of consumerism, how do we, in our little corner of hospitality, help to quickly get them past consumerism into the post material world where we know that they [00:38:00] can have real joy and enact real change and be real stewards for the planet? How can we do that?
Jannes Sorenson: So first of all, I think you actually underlined what I was saying. I didn't feel the pushback. I a hundred percent agree what
you're saying. I think, I think the fact that consumerism is somehow in our genes, would push back here. So the, like we have, for example, the, the Maslow, uh, pyramid of Needs, right?
it is really about, you know. Obviously, at the very beginning, feeling a sense of safety and having enough to eat and feeling shelter and have a basic hygiene needs that sort of are the lowest denominator of our needs. But when it really comes to what elevates us, it's really about this element of personal growth, belonging and love that as humans, we genetically strive for.
That, that makes community strong. It's not a new iPhone that will make people sort of [00:39:00] happy and, and have them strive for. It's just because we associate material goods with a well lived life. But that's something which is, I feel not genetic, but it's really created through clever marketing and to, to this inherent thing of not making feel people that they have enough or that they're good enough, right?
Like marketing is really there to make people feel miserable about themselves. And then you can buy this thing and then you feel better about themselves. another thing that is, I think, quite interesting is, is what Deming has done. Um, who is a psychologist and economist and who really said that there's this, graph from the beginning to end of life.
And you start your life feeling that you're unconditionally loved, right? If you're six months old, your mother loves you unconditionally. There's nothing you have to do to earn that love. And everything we [00:40:00] do is intrinsic. I have a four year old son. If I want to play with him with a ball, I don't have to motivate them by any incentive to play with that ball.
It's intrinsic. They just do it. Children do things just because. There's no, sort of external motivation factor attached to this. As we grow older in life, our relationships become transactional. So now we're not unconditionally love, we're actually loved because of something we do or something we are.
And that starts in You know, in school, you know, like you got a cake because you won the football tournament, right? Like out of a sudden I'm being loved for something that I have done or produced And most of the things that we do are motivated by extrinsic factors Because people have an expectation of what you should do Or how we should behave.
So good luxury hospitality brings you back to the beginning of your life, right? Like the best [00:41:00] luxury hotel is the luxury hotel that makes you feel unconditionally loved, right? Where you don't need to do anything to earn that. And, um, Adam, I will answer your question, but Neil, you, you, I think you wanted to say something.
Neil Foster: Well, yeah, and I love I love how you're sort of framing all of this. And I wonder if the connecting point is status. So when you're young, you have no understanding of what status means. When you get to the billionaire class, you've already achieved status. And so perhaps somewhere in the middle that status is about going for a big exuberant meal somewhere and being seen.
Uh, at the billionaire class being seen as no longer interesting for status because you've already achieved everything that you want, from a status perspective and self actualization to you means, uh, living your best life. Maybe there's a really great connecting point here with wellness, uh, which Adam's an expert on the, on the wellness side of things, but perhaps there's some self selection here at play that looking at the [00:42:00] luxury.
looking at the luxury strata as you've described it, Yanis, that perhaps uh, this is an area that is self selecting for those that are interested in living a good, wholesome life.
Jannes Sorenson: yeah, absolutely. I think that's really what luxury hospitality, um, will embrace as a future is to, to elevate and to better lives that people already live, right? There's a Japanese, um. of shoe Hari, uh, which is really, um, about self betterment. And as I said before, with, with Deming, I think most sustainable way of making people feel elevated is through personal growth and self mastery and not through buying more stuff, right?
Like, but that's really something where luxury hospitality can. Accompany people and the luxury companies of the future won't [00:43:00] sell products and, just services and sort of material based experiences. They'll sell relationship, knowledge, um, information. and the sense of connection. And the beauty about this is that these types of offerings where we will be able to charge huge amounts of money for are inherently very sustainable because they don't have a big carbon footprint.
So it's really to change that narrative. We live in a world where with artificial intelligence. and the abundance of energy the next 10 years will really live in a world that is uncomparable to the world that we live in today. So what we've always, um, associated luxury or luxury good with something that is difficult to attain.
But if out of a sudden, labor is no longer an issue and energy is no longer an issue. a material good that was really difficult to attain [00:44:00] because it took a lot of effort and energy and money to produce, out of a sudden is less desirable because everybody can have it, right? because it doesn't cost anything to produce it.
So what is the new luxury? And in many ways, the new luxury will be the difficult human things. So can you have a healthy mind and a healthy body? Are you able to hold good human to human relationships? Are you able to grow, your circle of friends and family and. That is something that today luxury hospitality hasn't embraced yet.
How do we help people to do the difficult human things? Luxury hospitality is all about comfort, but the Japanese will tell you that there's no joy and comfort, right? Like the, the real growth happens if you step out of your comfort zone. That's the, the major shift that we'll see that for now, luxury hospitality is a, is the exception and the escapes from reality and from people's difficult [00:45:00] lives.
But by the time that is shifting, real luxury will lie in allowing people to do the difficult things that only humans can do.
Adam Mogelonsky: So, you know, I totally agree. And, uh, you know, I am versed in wellness, but really where I'm looking ahead is, is this whole idea of longevity and the
sciences of
of staying healthy over the long period of time. And you said it almost perfectly, which is, you know, the whole idea of having temporary discomfort in order to optimize for long term health. You know, you take an ice bath, you don't enjoy the ice bath during the ice bath, but you get benefits afterwards. Same thing for a long run, a sprint. Uh, fasting for three days, all that fun stuff. these are still relatively new concepts. Uh, so it takes time for them to disseminate. I'm wondering to ground this, to give people a visual picture, if they're not fully on board with the post material world that we're heading towards and all of that implies, I'm wondering [00:46:00] if you could color. This whole idea of regenerative tourism with some examples that you've seen of hotels that are appealing to this new idea of luxury of self actualization, self transcendence, you know, uh, doing the hard things that are beyond abundance. Um, some names that I think aiming for this, but they still have to appeal to the old, the old world of abundance based luxury. Um, Soneva, Six Senses, uh, Virgin Limited Edition. I'm sure you have plenty more examples. I'm wondering, could you ground this in some, some motels that really pique your interest?
Jannes Sorenson: Yeah, interesting that like the list that you have just named there, none of them are city properties, right? Like, apart from Six Senses which should have starts to do this right now. It's funny that sustainability and sort of the new concept of luxury is mainly sourced out to like, you know, Tahiti and, you know, somewhere in the middle of the Brazilian rainforest.
And [00:47:00] like, whereas London luxury and Paris and New York Paris and is still saying, well, You know, this is not relevant for us, you know, we, we still do the old model. that's going to be an interesting shift. Six Senses does some great work, like for example, in the Maldives, they're sort of, you know, regenerating some of the coral reefs.
They've really tried to give back to the community. And I think that's so interesting thinking about these, um, terminologies, because sustainable and sustainability is really not doing any more harm. Right. Like, but it doesn't actually add something back and that's where regenerative practices really are the way forward.
So it's not about sustaining the status quo, but it's how can we give something, uh, something back. Um, the Brando in Tahiti, you know, in French Polynesia does a lot. They have incredible ways of using sort of the cold water resources to cool their rooms. They are very engaged in the local community to, to help the [00:48:00] local community to give back.
There's some great properties in Costa Rica that look at regenerative farming. But within city luxury hospitality, I think, you know, Goulds Milton Hotel is very good. in their efforts, that's maybe not what you would describe as uber luxury, but what I found is that a lot of the sort of mid market hotel groups, there's more innovative models and sort of, faster acceleration of integrating sustainable and regenerative practices than the super luxury market.
another example, which I think is, quite telling is Zoku, uh, that I mentioned earlier with Hans Meyer that has really created this, this new model of, of hospitality and luxury hospitality, where they are all about bringing people together and creating community and forcing, forcing and allowing people to create relationships.
And they do that in really innovative ways. For example, the staff in Zoku hotels eats. with the [00:49:00] clients. So they would literally just sit next to a client and go to the same buffet and have a meal with them. Um, which obviously allows for a very different interaction and a very different sort of integration.
The interesting thing is that when you speak to Hans, who is, you know, really somebody I look up to. He says he has so many clients who have, let's say a budget of 2000 euros a night, who spent 400 euros or 500 euros at Zoku, even though they could go to some other fancy luxury hotel, but they don't want that because what they define as luxury is no longer You know, the marble bathroom or the big lobby or sort of 15 meter pool that only whatever, 3 percent of people actually use.
But it's the way to be able to have real world relationships with the people who run the hotel and be part of this community. I think that these are some, some good examples of people going in the right direction. There's some [00:50:00] great, uh, smaller hotels in the Tuscan Hills that have sort of, you know, very regenerative business models.
But. I feel that inner city luxury hospitality needs to take inspiration from that. We are a top down industry and imagine a world where the best hotel in the world happens to be planet positive. You know, like what echo would that send out to all of the different stakeholders in the industry and all of the people who think about going into hospitality.
If we create this new paradigm and this new north star. Of it's the best luxury hospitality experience in the best cities in the world happens to be fully sustainable. Well, then this becomes the new default in the way we look at luxury hospitality before that doesn't change. I feel a lot of the usual players right now.
We'll look at these. more remote concerts and say, this is really great. And, you know, well done to you, but this doesn't [00:51:00] still apply to us. It's a bit like in luxury hospitality or in hospitality itself, we always have this need to categorize, right? Like we've seen this rise about longevity. Yes. Like Lanza Hoff and Sha wellness and all these sort of detox hospitality concepts.
But it's sort of, it's a bit like, um, guest relation in hotels because it has a very strange implication. If you have detox hospitality, what does it say about the other hospitality? Right? Like, why would you need hospitality like this? Do people, why do people talks in the first place, you know, that they then have to go to.
detox hospitality. why do we need guest relation teams in hotels? What does that say about any other team member, right? They're not in charge of guest relation. And I think that that sort of shift to say, can we integrate [00:52:00] measures of sustainability and healthy living? In all different categories of hotels, even at the very high end, I think that will really help us to shift the tone and, and prepare the industry to be at the forefront of this new future, because the future will happen, right?
Like, it's not luxury hospitality who will decide where the world goes, you know, like, it's just The question is, will we lead this change, and will we be relevant in this change, or will we be being behind?
Adam Mogelonsky: I think people always look to luxury hotels because traditionally things have almost followed an adoption curve where it starts in luxury and then goes goes across and reaches mass market. But I really like the you've mentioned some mid market brands to really show in an urban. accessible way that, that you can be regenerative because the luxury marble double vanity washroom is not necessarily what everyone is looking [00:53:00] for.
They're looking for human to human connections in a lot of ways. And they're looking for their hotel stay to mean something. And, I have always found that regenerative farming is one aspect to that. And, uh, teaching people about sustainability and being planet positive is a great way to give people meaning to their stays.
Jannes Sorenson: Yeah, and I mean, saying all of that, beautifully designed hotels with very functional and beautiful, you know, amenities will stay the basis of our industry. So, but the way to describe it is that. So there is always this element of, what is the product and what is the hygiene factor, right?
Like if you go to a Louis Vuitton store, the product is the bag. The hygiene factor is the service, right? In luxury hotels. We think that the beautifully designed rooms, the big lobby, the pool, the double vanity is our product, right? And the service is the hygiene factor, [00:54:00] but it's, it's inverse. Like people go to luxury hotels because of the way that they feel and the way that they are being made felt by the team and by the experiences that they live.
And the product itself really just is a hygiene factor. If it's not good enough. If it doesn't work, if it's not well lit, if the bed's not comfortable, if the shower doesn't have enough pressure, if all of these things, it's a detractor. It can only be a problem because on a luxury end, we're still so proud of our product.
But the last 20 years, the homes of luxury hotel clients have changed fundamentally. I mean, look at a first class flight in the 1970s. I mean, it was That's terrible. Really? Like today, these, these seats are just incredible. And like people's houses has evolved, have evolved in the same way. We still have really proud about like underflow heating in the bathroom and flat screen TVs.
And like, I mean, people's homes [00:55:00] look much better than any city hotel. So we can't wow people with this old model. Like first air conditioning was in a hotel. The first lift was in the hotel. First running water was in a hotel. Hotels were always innovators when it comes to product. Today we're lacking behind.
I mean, every luxury city hotel is a downgrade for these customers. So this can no longer be what we pride ourselves of why people stay with us. So the hygiene factor needs to become the product because it already is the product for the clients. It's just that the industry hasn't inversed this yet.
Adam Mogelonsky: Well, uh, that does raise the question is when does it inverse, uh, and as to give some context on that is, you know, luxury hotels, you mentioned they are downgraded from a lot of their clients hotels and they're still charging 2000 euros a night, 2, 000. They charge that price because they can get away with it.
They're still at 85, 90 percent [00:56:00] occupancy. with an ADR in the stratosphere. So when, when does the situation adverse, what should we look for as leading indicators?
Jannes Sorenson: Well, Clayton Christensen said that like, if you want to create a new business model, you need to solve a need that isn't solved yet. Why is this happening? Because nobody else is doing anything else, right? Like, I mean, all of these luxury city hotels more or less look the same. So there's no disruptors. So what do you do as a client?
You know, there's nowhere else that you can go. So This is a call to all the entrepreneurs out there. Like, there's so many people in senior luxury hospitality positions who want to be part of this new luxury model. Um, but for now there is not many companies, or I don't know of any, who does it at that level in inner city.
Luxury hospitality, the market is there. The clients are there, they have shifted. It's just a lack of alternative today. And I think the one thing that we shouldn't underestimate as well is that the COVID pandemic [00:57:00] and, and recent advantages in technology have made a lot of people who are already rich.
Uber rich, right? Like, I mean, people pay ridiculous amounts of money today for hotel stays also because there's so much more wealth creation. That doesn't mean that the product actually is so much better than it was before, right? Like if you look at many hotels after COVID, they're charged twice the rate, but the value proposition has actually not changed, right?
Like it's just a supply and demand. And if you can charge the money, people charge it, but the value hasn't changed. So that's normally not a good indicator for sustained success.
Adam Mogelonsky: So, uh, Jannes and Neil, we've been going at it for an hour. We've given hopefully a lot of ideas to inspire people. I certainly am. And I have my own ideas for applying to projects because it really is something where this is a huge, huge opportunity for 50 years to get in on this next mega mega trend. Neil, any, [00:58:00] any closing thoughts?
Neil Foster: Well, Jannes, I'm really excited with what you're doing and how you've described your approach to education and finding support for the next generation of leaders. Using another Japanese philosophy of kintsugi, which is turning adversity into something beautiful and resilient. This is something That probably also plays into your thinking where you look at what's broken, uh, in our society and turning it into a unique work of art.
And perhaps this is some of the thinking and some of the, perspective that the leaders in your program are applying to, Uber luxury hospitality. So really interested in in your perspective and excited for what's to come. I just wanted to ask one question, though, and that is, as a concierge that you are somebody that took a lot of data.
And you were able to synthesize that data and abstract it to be able to provide guests with very specific recommendations [00:59:00] on, to suit their needs and to suit, uh, their profile, I guess, looking at technology is sort of this, uh, secret weapon. that can be used in hospitality at all levels.
What's your view of technology in the way that it's applied to Uber hospitality? Is it subtle? what are your perspectives on the best use of technology?
Jannes Sorenson: So, let me put it this way, you can throw away in the bin. Any projections for projects that are older than like in the future. More than four years, I think will profoundly change of how luxury hospitality will be operating. I think we're still comparing. Artificial intelligence to another upgrade on the iPhone.
This is a completely new set of technology that has nothing to do with technology of how we know it. large language models and the integration of large language models into hospitality service will take out anything that's transactional. So hotels of the future won't have revenue management, [01:00:00] won't have accounting teams, won't have concierges, room service order takers, reservationists.
Everything will go. Any conversation that is transactional that doesn't add profound human value won't be a position in luxury hotels. that's a bit hard to grabble around, but that's just what's going to be. And the beauty is that we can start hiring people with a very different profile to add value in this new model of luxury hospitality.
So. we still think about luxury hospitality and staffing and luxury hospitality in the same payroll structure with the same hierarchical model of like, who do you need to run a hotel? All of that will change completely. and it will allow us to. Have people work in luxury hospitality that would have never considered to work in luxury hospitality because their set of, knowledge and value that they can add we a couldn't afford it [01:01:00] because we spend so much money on payroll for transition for transactional employment that we now need don't need to pay for.
And because the old model of hospitality didn't look at these sets of, uh, experiences or conversations that really can add value. So let, let me give you an example. think we'll, we'll have, uh, a lot more health practitioners work in last year hospitality. I think we'll have former directors of museums, you know, former astronauts, race car drivers, like people you actually want to call, talk to, right?
Like. The thing with luxury hospitality is that the best luxury hospitality experiences today is when people are nice and remember your name. But you're a 55 year old billionaire who walks into a London city hotel. Can you really have an elevated discussion with a hotel employee? You can't because how can somebody who was 23 and his first job of hospitality and funnily enough, we put the June the [01:02:00] most junior people in our doubts always in guest contact, right?
That doesn't make any sense. But they can't have a real conversation with that client. They don't understand the way this client lives. But once we take all the transaction and are able to outsource all the transaction will be able to you. work with people in luxury hospitality that will actually start to have really elevating experiences with these clients.
So I think there's, there's really going to be an amazing future for luxury hospitality. And they're obviously the, the human centric hospitality will never go away because AI and a large language model will never. Change and be able, I think in the near future to replace the human interaction, but what it will be able to replace is, you know, a 6 a.
m. call to room service to get breakfast, you know, like that's just like a no brainer. Why would you not speak to, you know, a large language model that understands your order completely knows [01:03:00] whatever you have ordered in the past will never forget anything is empathetic. things of everything, doesn't forget anything and doesn't cost anything and has the voice of Morgan Freeman if you want.
So like, I think we were still comparing it to the language models or to the bots that we get on the phone when we call American Airlines today, but that's going to be very different. We're literally going to feel that we're speaking to a person. I think there's a lot to embrace when it comes to technology.
We can't push it away. Right. As a concierge, I've always said the internet should have never been the enemy to the concierge, but they should have embraced it because the internet can't do something that a concierge can do, but if you try to compete with that technology, you you'll lose. Right. So we need to embrace AI as an elevation and not as a threat.
To hospitality. It's going to be an enabler, not a threat.
Neil Foster: That's a great answer. And thinking about Kepler and the laws of planetary motion, if information is the sun around which everything else [01:04:00] revolves, that's an interesting dynamic.
Jannes Sorenson: Absolutely. Yes.
And
Kepler quite interestingly, you know, um, Galileo obviously said that we are orbiting around the sun and not the sun around us. And it was rather unpopular at the time to say that. And then Kepler calculated the exact orbit that we're on and. I think in many ways, luxury hospitality, like Galileo said at the time to the church, look through the telescope.
You know, I can show you that this is what's happening. I think to an extent, we don't want to look through the telescope and see the world for what it is and where it goes to. And as luxury hospitality, we have the brightest of futures, but we have to embrace this future and we have to lead into this future and with Kepler Academy.
And I see this cohort right now going through this course. It's transformational, right? Like we, we need to equip leaders and hospitality leaders with a different set of skill cell skill set to be prepared and to lead into this future. So [01:05:00] we have our next, um, cohort starting in April. We're still taking applications.
So April, May, June is the Kepler Academy. And, uh, yeah, I couldn't be more excited about it.
Adam Mogelonsky: wow. I mean, yeah. So some profound lessons to finish off, uh, for a powerful hour to, uh, look at the future and a lot of these ideas, you know, we're going to look back at it right now in 20 years time to see these ideas come to full fruition, because that's how long it takes to change, culture on a very deep level. So Jannes, thank you so much for, for coming in and giving us some very inspiring ideas to look forward to, to think, and to just show us a lot of the opportunities that are out there for existing hotels, as well as new entrepreneurs who want to come in and really change things.
Thank
Jannes Sorenson: And thank you, Adam. And thank you, Neil. Thanks for the opportunity to speak to you
Neil Foster: Thank you, Jannes.
Jannes Sorenson: all the best.
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